🌟 Nanoscience from the Birthplace of Graphene with Julien Barrier: Episode 193 of Under the Microscope 🔬

What to Expect:

In this episode, Julien Barrier delves into his innovative research on graphene and other 2D materials. Julien shares his journey from studying materials science in France to working at the University of Manchester, the birthplace of graphene. He discusses his work on exploring the properties and applications of these materials and their potential for technological advancements.

About the Guest:

🌟 Key Takeaways from This Episode:

• Graphene Research: Exploring the properties and applications of graphene and other 2D materials.
• Career Journey: From studying materials science in France to conducting groundbreaking research at the University of Manchester.
• Favorite Experiment: Investigating the mechanical properties of graphene for various applications.

🔬 In This Episode, We Cover:

Julien’s Research:

Julien’s research focuses on exploring the unique properties of graphene and other 2D materials. His work aims to understand their mechanical, electrical, and thermal properties and how these can be harnessed for various technological applications, including electronics, energy storage, and materials science.

Julien’s Career Journey :

Julien’s academic journey began with a Bachelor’s in Materials Science in France. He pursued his passion for nanoscience, leading him to his current role at the University of Manchester, where he conducts groundbreaking research on graphene and other 2D materials.

Julien’s Favourite Research Experiment :

Julien’s favorite experiment involves investigating the mechanical properties of graphene. By understanding how graphene behaves under different conditions, he aims to develop new applications for this remarkable material, including flexible electronics and advanced composites.

Life as a Scientist- Beyond the Lab

Julien values the collaborative nature of scientific research and enjoys engaging with the global scientific community. He is passionate about teaching and mentoring the next generation of scientists and values the opportunity to work in a cutting-edge field.

Julien’s 3 Wishes

1. Increased funding for research: Julien wishes for more financial support to advance innovative research projects.
2. Greater collaboration between researchers: He advocates for stronger partnerships to enhance knowledge sharing and collaborative efforts in research.
3. Improved public understanding of scientific research: Julien emphasizes the importance of public awareness and support for scientific advancements.

Julien’s Time on @RealSci_Nano:

Julien will be taking over the RealSci_Nano Twitter account to share his research on graphene and other 2D materials. Followers can expect to learn about the innovative techniques and materials his work focuses on, as well as insights into the future of nanoscience.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Hi, everyone. I’m Pranavati, your host of Under the Microscope. In today’s episode, we are going to talk about graphene and lots more. So we will be in conversation with Julianne Burry. who will tell us about the materials of nanoscience straight from the birthplace of graphene. Uh, Julian is originally from France.

Uh, we talk about his journey from, from Paris to, to Manchester as a scientist, uh, the research projects that he’s working on, uh, and, uh, Also, uh, a lot of questions, uh, that Julian answered very nicely, very candidly about the permanent positions, the tenure track positions that usually are on the, which are usually on the wishlist for scientists around the world.

Uh, so yeah, basically we talked about lots of things and what keeps him in science and, um, a lot more. So yeah, enjoy the episode.[00:01:00] 

Hi, everyone. I am Pranothi, your host for the Under the Microscope series, which is produced by the Science Talk. And today we have a very, very exciting guest on our podcast. His name is Iuliam. I am definitely butchering the pronunciation of his name, but I hope he will forgive me for that. Um, Julio is, um, an EPSRC fellow in Manchester in, in the UK, uh, which is essentially Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, uh, to enable, um, um, Researchers to be independent to to be able to do some cool research.

So yeah, and you Leo is based in Manchester in the UK. So hi, Julian. How is the weather in Manchester today? Hi. Today’s exceptionally good. Thank you. Um, yeah, it hasn’t rained for quite a long time [00:02:00] here, which is, uh It’s a miracle. Sort of. Yeah. Sort of miracle. Yeah. That’s really good. It’s not raining here in my part of Germany either, but it is definitely raining.

It’s quite cloudy, and I think it’s going to rain in the evening, but yeah, we will see. Um, awesome. Let’s dig into your research. So could you explain your research to us in super simple words, please? Yes, I’m working on a field called mesoscopic transport. So it’s a branch of physics that the intersection between quantum mechanics and classical physics.

Thank you very much. So deals with piston that are composed, um, off a very large number of patterns so much larger than what could mechanics usually does. Um, but they are so small that some quantization phenomena appear and we try to look at these sort of phenomenon. And the best system to study this is, of course, graphene.

Um, so we create graphene electronic devices like transistors, and then we measure their properties, uh, against different conditions of temperatures and fields, electric bias, uh, et cetera, et cetera. And hopefully we find some novel phenomena that couldn’t be found in other sorts of devices that are larger or smaller.[00:03:00] 

Okay. All right. So, so this, this field is new for me, the mesoscopic physics and the interaction with the, between the quantum mechanics and the classical physics. So could you tell me what, like, do you, okay, two questions. First of all, is it a theoretical work or is it experimental? So it’s like experimental physics.

Uh, I mean, uh, um, I’m making devices and then measuring them. Okay. Okay. All right. And so when you measure, uh, these devices, what exactly are you measuring? Are you like going to low temperatures or are you? Like heating? No, of course you won’t heat up the graphene because then it will just go away. Uh, but, uh, what, what are you measuring?

Like, are you stressing graphene and then seeing how the carbon atoms behave or what, what exactly? Like just for me to visualize it. That’s an interesting question. Um, so we cool down the devices, uh, down to tens of millikelvin. So tens of, uh, uh, uh, tens. It’s about 10, 000 of a degree above absolute [00:04:00] zero, so that’s very low.

Um, and then we measure electrical properties. That means we connect cables, electrical connections to the device. Uh, we send a current and measure a voltage drop or a resistance. Um, uh, it’s it sounds very easy as it is. Uh, and in fact, it is easy. Um, but the interpretation of it is, is. not always, uh, the easiest part because the resistance can vary dramatically when you vary some parameters, some conditions, uh, and that’s understanding the changes, the resistance, uh, that is interesting.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it sounds very interesting. Yeah, you just have two electrodes and then of course, it’s easy, but yeah, it’s way more complicated than that. And I think the cryo cryo system is like as big as a human being, if not bigger. To keep like this tiny little micrometer range sample. Cool. Um, uh, this is, yeah, absolutely.

Um, it’s, it’s, uh, it takes, uh, two s squarer meters on the floor, uh, plus additional space for the [00:05:00] instrumentation, and then it’s two meters high. So it’s, it’s a huge system for a chip that’s, uh, just, I don’t know, a micron wide uhhuh. Yeah, exactly. So. Um, exactly. Yeah. So are you then focusing on, uh, mono graphene, or is it bilayer or twisted bilayer or like doped or, or can you not tell us about it?

Uh, I, I can definitely tell it. Uh, and I think this will be a subject of, uh, this week, um. So we are focusing on a very broad range of materials. I have studied, uh, monolayer graphene, uh, that was encapsulated or sandwiched between other 2D materials. Um, we’re studying, uh, bilayer graphene, uh, twisted bilayers, uh, and they have a lot of different properties.

They have, uh, lots of different physics that we can induce into them, uh, and that, that’s quite exciting. Okay. All right. Yeah, the reason why I asked is my master thesis was about growing twisted bilayer graphene with chemical vapor deposition. And my PhD work was also on graphene. So graphene is close to my heart.

So when you said that graphene is like a non negotiable when you’re talking about research, I’m [00:06:00] like, yep, I’m in. And. Listeners or watchers, we did not reach out to Julian just because he’s working in graphene. Okay, there is no bias. All researchers are welcome. I, I personally have like a bias towards graphene, but I love all the other materials.

I feel like I need to explain that or like, just like a disclaimer. Um, all right, Julia, um, um, So I’m curious about how did you end up being the research fellow that you are right now for the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council. I’ve written this down here. How did you end up there? Tell us about your career journey, please.

Yeah, I think my, my career journey is a bit, uh, atypical in the sense that I, I didn’t start in, uh, economics but physics, uh, originally I started in chemical physics, um, uh, and I studied in Paris, at ESPCI Paris, that’s a small institution, uh, where the teaching curriculum, um, is, um, atypical for, for French, uh, for the French, uh, teaching system where, uh, uh, Load is it’s quite heavy on the math and the theoretical physics.

Uh, but in this [00:07:00] institution, we learned hands on physics. We learned experimental physics on chemistry as well. Um, uh, so that was my mindset to approach physics. I think, um, at the end of this, I joined at the end of my master’s degree from Paris. I joined the slack National Accelerator Laboratory. Um, For my master’s project, I worked on phase transitions in metal alloys perovskite.

So very far away from graphene. Yeah. And then in September 2018, I joined this lab in Manchester to work on graphene. So I submitted a project. A project proposal that was very much oriented, uh, into chemical physics, uh, to, uh, my, um, PhD supervisor, uh, he accepted the project, uh, funding and, uh, we started, uh, this.

So started fabricating devices. And stuff on this project, trying to make basic chemical synthesis of new 2D materials. But for various reasons, it didn’t work. The devices that we measured weren’t really measurable in the conditions that we [00:08:00] had. So he proposed me to drop out this part of the project and focus on electronic measurements.

And that’s how I ended up. Doing a condensed matter physics, which is probably the branch of physics that is the hardest to explain to the great public. Um, and then at the end of my, uh, PhD, I applied for this, uh, doctoral price, uh, fellowship from the EPSRC, the engineering and physical science research council in the UK.

Um, and they give me, um, they granted me a one year funding. Uh, For my research, uh, and so they give salary and they give consumables and travel, uh, funding, um, and they granted me this, uh, I’m very grateful for this, and, uh, I’m staying one more year here in Manchester for that. Okay, that’s, that sounds really, really cool.

So are you having fun in Manchester? Yeah, I think with the research, I mean, not with socializing.

So Manchester is a really vibrant city and, and, um, the graphing cluster that we have here is incredible. Um, there are two buildings dedicated to graphing research. There’s, uh, all the departments that the whole [00:09:00] physics, uh, uh, is mostly big into graphene or other 2D materials. Um, so we’re very grateful that we have all of this, um, with, with, uh, measurement abilities, uh, that are great.

And I don’t think there’s anything equivalent, uh, for this sort of graphing research, um, For sure, there’s nothing in the UK, uh, and in Europe, uh, I think you can count the number of comparable labs, uh, on five fingers. Yeah, absolutely. And Manchester is the birthplace of graphene, isn’t it? Absolutely. It’s well discovered here.

I mean, one better place to research graphene than the birthplace itself. Uh, so it’s incredible. Yes, absolutely. Um, uh, they discovered graphene in 2004, published the first paper. Uh, in 2004 and then grew. Uh, and at the same time, all the groups joined into this, uh, graphene research. And I think this is quite incredible that so many people joined this and, and showed that [00:10:00] making graphene was easy was possible.

Uh, a lot of people was very skeptical when the first paper came out. Um, the fact that many of the labs joined. Uh, and it gave this momentum onto graphene research and right now, uh, there are so many groups all over the world doing this, uh, each one having their own niche. Um, so we’re, we’re sort of the crossroads here in Manchester of all this research, looking a bit at everything, uh, still.

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the last decade, so from 2010 to 2020. Since the momentum like started, like things started picking up from 2004. And I think in 2008 that they published a paper with, uh, the, this ballistic transport, uh, within graphene. And I think after that is just took off. Uh, and, uh, yeah, so the last decade in my mind is like the graphene decade.

And now it’s more like, okay, commercializing and like, okay, it’s not just graphene. It has opened this. Giant box of Pandora with so many other two dimensional [00:11:00] materials. Um, it’s, it’s, it’s incredible. So, um, as you’re sitting in the birthplace of graphene, Um, I’m sure you’re involved in a lot of interesting research projects and you were involved in So, um, I know that you are also in Paris and your journey along the way.

Um, if you have to pick one research project that you’re most proud of, uh, or the most fun or quirky one, um, could you pick one research project and explain it to us in simple words in the section we call In Other Words. Um, sure. I think, I think the first PhD project, the first project I was involved during my PhD, um, on graphene supers, uh, is quite interesting.

So we combine graphene and another material that is alite, right? Mm-Hmm. , uh, it’s usually called white graphene because it has a structure. That is hexagonal and resembles the structure of graphene, but it’s 1.8% larger than graphene. Um, so we combine And it’s, it’s not conducting. It’s not conducting, yeah.

It’s absolutely, it’s insulating. Uh, so combine, [00:12:00] stacking it with graphene doesn’t affect, uh, the electrical properties of graphene except with one thing that it creates, uh, um, periodic modulation of the electronic potential because you have. Moiré pattern, so people who know about fabric know about moirés.

It’s a sort of interferences pattern when you, um, tie different fabrics together that have a different, uh, uh, different, uh, interference pattern. They’re not exactly aligned, but slightly misaligned and then create this, uh, waving stuff. Um, and so this combination of graphene and hexagonal boron anhydride, when they’re exactly aligned, uh, creates this modulation of the potential.

And what it does is that some length scales on 10 nanometers, something like this are accessible in electronic transport. And particularly if you increase the magnetic field, What you see is that the um, movement of electrons can become on the same length scale at the length scale of the lattice. Um, and this gave rise to a new family of quasar particles that we, uh, discovered.

Uh, we call them the Brown Zach fermions, uh, because we found some, uh, [00:13:00] theorists in the 1960s, that theorized, uh, some mathematical formalism, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. Was such a phenomenon, but it was completely inaccessible at the time, and they appear at Hemingfield, and I can talk about this research further on the Twitter account.

I think I think it was quite interesting to see this, and the paper was published in 2020 in the middle of lockdown in Nature Communications, so we’re quite proud of that. Ah, that’s really cool. So what did you call the particles? Uh, what did you call them? Fermions, but what, which, So we call them Brown Zach Fermions, uh, in honor of Brown and Zach, uh, who are two, uh, theoretical physicists, uh, of the 1960s.

Oh! Ah, that’s really nice. It’s an, an ode to the theoretical physicists. That’s really nice. Yeah, unfortunately, we have to do this. We can’t name the quasiparticle sector ourselves. That would be too easy. Well, you can for yourself. I mean, no. You can call them like, okay, Brown, uh, I forgot the other name. And also known as Uh, you didn’t worry about it or something.

No, no, no, I understand. But yeah, that must be really cool. And congratulations on that paper in Asia Communications. Um, I can imagine why you picked this project as, let’s say, one of The project that you’re proud of. Um, [00:14:00] all right. So, um, I, uh, and I definitely look forward to learning more about this in the on the Twitter account when you’re taking over the real scientist on Twitter account, of course.

Um, so other than being, uh, other than doing the research in the lab, uh, What else do you like about being a scientist? I think, I think what drives me, um, the most is that I’m able to be curious. I have a complete freedom on the sort of problems that I have. I can do the sort of questions that I’m able to answer.

The only limit is, uh, am I able to answer this question? Um, but I can ask, uh, I can ask anybody. Um, anyone in the community can just drop an email and people would be very happy to, uh, have a chat. I think this is certainly a great chance. Like the only limit to my abilities is my curiosity. Um, I think this is something, probably something that, that, uh, we’re the most lucky about, uh, as scientists.

Yeah, absolutely. The curiosity. Oh, that is so nice. I’m so happy always to meet scientists who say that curiosity is something that drives them and motivates them to [00:15:00] do the science and also stay in science. Like the research aspect is really cool. Um, Uh, it sounds to me in the last what to have an hour of knowing you that your research experience has been quite good or quite acceptable, quite successful so far.

However, if you had three wishes to improve your research experience, what would you ask for? And I’m not promising anything here. Okay.

Um, Yeah, I think I think it sounds that he’s been quite smooth, but it’s not always the case. We always brag about our accomplishment paper that we publish, etc. But there’s a lot of time that we just don’t find anything we look for something and everything that we look at. Has already been published or like there’s sometimes there’s just nothing to to to look at so it demands quite a lot of energy and [00:16:00] resilience to Come back failure after failure after failure to find something that meant and sounds interesting or like Um, you see something and you see a little artifact that that’s not really, um, the way it should be.

You dig and dig and dig and dig and finally find something. So I think, uh, what would be better is more time. Um, as researchers, we’re, uh, always run after time. We need, we have deadlines, uh, to submit proposals. We have deadlines to submit ramifications, to submit, uh, papers before the PhD, before the postdoc contract to find the new one, et cetera, et cetera.

So having a bit more rest and, and a time to think about what we, uh, really work with, um, You can’t find something groundbreaking in just three months, for example, that’s not possible. You need, you need time to think, you need time to discuss, uh, you need ideas to come out, uh, and this, this deserves quite a lot of time.

And I think [00:17:00] I’m quite lucky with this, and I have been quite lucky with this, uh, especially here in Manchester. But still, uh, research would be better if we let scientists think longer, uh, if we give them longer contract, uh, et cetera. Um, and the second thing, um, I wouldn’t have to improve the research experience.

Um, I think would be lack, um, a situation that’s not so precarious, uh, as early career researchers, uh, et cetera. We have very short contracts, we have very precarious situations where we’re always looking for the next position and stuff, um, and having a bit more stability, uh, longer contracts, uh, more stable positions, uh, would definitely help.

And finally, I think, uh, lowering the administrative load, uh, would be helpful. Uh, it takes a lot of times and resources, uh, whenever I want or need to order an equipment. whenever I need to access something, especially during COVID, like traveling, filling forms and stuff that nobody will read. But anyway, um, I understand that in some cases there’s a necessity of administrative load.

You can’t just purchase and spend money on random things. Um, especially if it’s not related to the research. So a minimum amount of administrative load would be necessary for that. [00:18:00] You’re checked, uh, but the universities, the institutions, they should a bit trust us, uh, with what we’re doing, uh, a bit more.

Um, I’m lucky that I’m still a junior researcher, so this administrative load is very low for me, uh, but still, I, I can’t imagine how hard that will be in the future. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you very much for sharing your wish list. So time, lesser administrative load, and longer term contracts, right? I heard a very interesting podcast yesterday when I was running.

It was about the topic of, uh, this 10 year track contract or longer term contracts, uh, and I would love to hear your thoughts about this because I found that very interesting. Um, so the podcast featured, um, I think it, he was an astrophysicist or something in the U. S., uh, in, uh, Boston if I remember correctly, I would have to go back and check and this professor, uh, has been with this university, uh, for like the last 35 years or 40 years, something like that.

And when he was [00:19:00] offered a tenure contract, you know, after the first five years, the committee came to him. I was like, okay, dude, you’re great. We, here is your tenure. And he refused to sign the tenure contract because he said, I want the five year contracts. Uh, so that we can come up with our goals or objectives or whatever it is that he’s going to do for the next five years.

Five years later, the committee meets again, evaluates, and then he presents a plan for the next five years, and so on and so forth. So this guy, this particular professor, he rejected a tenure track position, and that’s what the podcast was about. And I got really curious about this. So his reasoning was that, um, uh, tenure, like from his perspective, from his.

Experience tenure track positions are, uh, sought after. So the scientists who want these tenure track positions or these longer term contracts if people are not aware of this tenure track position term, uh, [00:20:00] like a permanent contract. Uh, so the motivation for scientists to have this permanent contract is they do not want to be evaluated.

Uh, they do not want to, um, face the wrath of like producing science. Um, and that’s, that’s why he was like, yeah, but that shows that the tenure track winners or people who have these permanent contracts, researchers who have these permanent contracts doesn’t, does not mean that they are good at their job.

It’s just, they’re good at their job. getting a permanent contract and doing good science and being good at getting a permanent contract are two different things, which is why he did not want a tenure track, uh, contract, like the permanent contract. And another interesting thing he mentioned is that this is what, because of this tenure track, uh, contracts, like this attractiveness of it, um, the, the 70%, I think it’s, this would be like the US based, I’m quoting it from this podcast, 70 percent of the teaching staff.

Is non permanent [00:21:00] contract, uh, folks. So if if the system things that get giving a professor a permanent contract will encourage them to teach more or, um, groom the next generation of scientists, that’s not what is happening in reality. 70 percent of the teaching is still done by non permanent staff like the temporary staff and usually if you tell someone that, hey, I’m a professor at this XYZ university, they would ask about, they would assume that you are a teacher.

Like you’re teaching, but which is not the reality because most of your time you spend on research. So, yeah, what are your thoughts about this? I’m really curious. Um, I think it contradicts a bit what I said, uh, where we’re looking for more, uh, um, less precarious situations and more long term, uh, situations.

I think, um, on this example, maybe give, give, People the ability, but most of the time, if you give people the ability to just do short term [00:22:00] contracts, contracts as they want, the institution will take more power and, um, start. thinking, okay, everyone will be on this short term contract and you leave no opportunity for stabilization and do something that, that you want.

Um, I think also that we, as researchers, um, we’re always evaluated. Like if you need to ask for a grant, you’re evaluated. Uh, if you’re a professor, so you, we have different systems where you are lecturer, reader, and then professor. If you want to move to the next step, um, you are evaluated as well. Or after certain years, you’re evaluated by your institutions.

And so overall, there is some sort of evaluation. Maybe it’s not the same, um, thing as, as a five years, uh, research track where you’re doing only one thing and then you have a very strong deadline, uh, but still there’s some evaluation along the way, um, you’re not here doing, uh, whatever thing you want, uh, just on your own.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would be happy with what we [00:23:00] have, uh, uh, currently, uh, with, with a bit more stability. I think, I think stability is comfort, less stress that allows us to do our research however we want or how we need to do it. If you want to do something seriously, give it time, give it resources, uh, and remove all the stress component.

Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with you, and I was of the same belief. I still am of the same, uh, belief as you shared that longer term contracts are fixed, like, not like this six months, one year, two years thing because nothing can happen, especially experimental work. Anything can go wrong and your experimental stall for like six months.

It can happen. So yeah, for me, it was really interesting. So I guess I mean, what needs to balance like from my point of view, I think we need to balance it out. And I think a good option would be like the for early career researchers like such as yourself. You get more of like a 10 year contract, uh, instead of like this, uh, [00:24:00] quick contracts.

And then the older you get, the shorter your contracts get because you already have a network, you already have publications and knowledge and experience and everything. So then, yeah, then you’re in a position to be evaluated. Uh, that can come to balance. Yeah, just to balance it out. Yeah, exactly. So earlier career researchers get 10 years.

And then, um, after that, um, you, you, 5, months. Exactly. Just flip it a bit. Yeah, well, uh, I’m pretty sure the professors and directors and the presidents of universities are going to come after me after.

It’s just a suggestion, guys. It’s an option. We don’t have to do it. It’s just an idea from an outsider’s perspective, because I’m not in the academic system anymore. Um, or the research system anymore actively. Um, but yeah, again, this has been wonderful speaking with you. Before I let you go, um, I would like to understand from you what can the followers expect in the week that you are taking over the Real Scientist Nano Twitter account.[00:25:00] 

Thank you. Thank you very much. So what can the followers expect? Oh, um, sorry. Um, so I, I will expect the physics and dealing with, um, I think this is something known to the general public or even, uh, to the broad community of researchers. Um, Although this field of mesoscopic physics has broke quite a large number of Nobel laureates, it’s still something that people don’t know about.

And I’ll explain and show the sort of experiment we are doing with examples and devices that we have. Um, I will talk a bit about the British research system because it’s different from other nationalities and I think some, it brings something good. Um, the research track I’m on currently, I think it’s a good system.

It’s not suitable for every country, but, um, here it’s, it’s quite good. Um, And then I’ll try to explain some of the research results in our field, our own research results, uh, and try to document a typical week as it goes. [00:26:00] Okay, that sounds like a very action packed week and I hope you will share lots of pictures of the lab, of the vibrant Manchester city, um, and also a bit about your, uh, your roots.

In France, if that’s possible. So thank you very much, Julian. It was a pleasure talking to you and cannot wait to have you on Real Scientist Nano. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you for listening. This is Pranati, host of Under the Microscope. To know more about us, visit our website, thescientstalk. com, and follow us on Twitter at realsci underscore nano.

Podcast title: Nanoscience from the Birthplace of Graphene

Julien is an EPSRC Fellow at the University of Manchester.

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